One step forward

Jools wrote:

There is no win win situation if he doesn't play wardle he's not giving promising youngsters a chance, if he rotates them then he not allowing continuity if he drops Leroy or Bruno when they are playing well the question would be why. What I do know is that although Bruno has only played two games at second row this is not a decision that has just been made, he did speak to him about this in the off season and he has been doing some training there too, gilly has been a mentor. We as spectators look at his decisions and the team performance one game at a time Nathan does not, he sees a much bigger picture and he is looking further forward and even possibly into next season.

I have heard (the odd) interview with NB where he has stated that "all we are concentrating on at the moment is next weeks match " and then we`ll consider where we go from there " etc etc

I also accept that he (and KD / RT) will have a long term plan where the club is heading -theyve got to have
His will be concentrated on his squad / tactics / etc in my opinion
Kd and RT will similarly have one eye (at least in these days of RL as a business ) on franchises /viability/ wage bills etc etc

One has to run hand in hand with the other --as bottom line silverware / success obviously makes life easier for the other aspects

You say that he is even maybe considering next season and the long term Jools
( me and Bo have been doing that for longer than we have been at the Galpharm stadium !

If so , there is in my mind that next season or the season after --he may well leave - move on -be replaced by a new man with different ideas who then makes changes (as they often do ) to future strategy and the merry go round starts all over again

In addition --I am sure that the bigger picture in his mind is adding a trophy success to his exemplary coaching CV
Similarly I am pretty sure -despite

1 the possible departure of a winger who presently (and regularly) knows where the whitewash is :
2 a GB sorry England forward .....................and recently
3 the "man of steel" winner who made quite a few sorties through our defensive line (though as Bo says not worthy of a similar extension to Gilly - but I wont start that again) )
-- with the squad we assembled at the start of the season I would seriously consider that all three "in charge" would be wanting SOME silverware THIS season rather than rotating / chopping and changing promising youngsters -and indeed seasoned professionals

I know its admirable and bodes well --but "youngsters" - unless with the obvious rare and exceptional talents of such as Tomkins/Goulding/ Edwards and Long - have in my opinion to be introduced gradually and into a well established and successful setup

The game isnt rounders -and believe me the old pros dont mess about in blooding the young uns --so much so that I have witnessed many promising youngsters who had all the confidence and "stuffing" knocked out of them

Additionally --you and me and KD/RT/NB and others on here probably all want the same

But when its 58 years since I saw em lift the cup -and I`ll guess you havent waited that long --Ill go for a settled, unified side that introduces young uns who gained recognition in a certain position in that position gradually : maintains a settled squad bar injuries /loss of form : and wins silverware this season or as soon as so I can see em do it again rather than musical chairs or shuffled card selection like we have seen previously and Im daisy manure!!

Just my opinion and apologise up front if anyones upset or offended

We can ask what is going wrong but I think what it boils down to is we are simply not good enough, regardless of (in my opinion mostly forced) changes in player positions) to finish in top spot. I think nn probably recognizes that.

Sadly Jools I believe we are and despite the injuries SHOULD have been strong enough despite weather / busses/ transport to overcome Crusaders and Wakey playing anywhere!-shay etc - then Wigan and Wires losses would not have had as big an impact

As I said we probably want the same but express it differently

Yes - there have been / are injuries to key players and some form lapses
Maybe this has put even more pressure on those remaining from the "1st choice" contingent --but basically my point then is that
the "up and coming" more junior squad members who are / have to be introduced would (IMO) fair much better (and indeed the experienced ones who are still chosen if played in their "regular" / career positions and keep disruption to a minimum

A big part of defence is positioning and shape on the field and this comes more naturally if youve played , and been spotted and signed,in a certain role and carried it on in the professional game There are exceptions of course such as Gilly / Wellens etc but they have had much more experience under several coaches --something which younger and "newer" players lack

I dont think we`re really that far away --but at the moment it seems theres a lack of intensity and shape
Players wondering around when the opposition are playing the ball and I feel that is partly due to theall too regular switches to personnel and playing positions

And as I said earlier whilst bad tackling and dropped balls are the lads` fault / problem , the officials decisions are outside our control, etc --team selection is NB`s responsibility and good as he undoubtedly is , I wonder deep down whether recent chopping about sits well with some team members -whatever their experience and age

Will leave it there !

Jools wrote:

There is no win win situation if he doesn't play wardle he's not giving promising youngsters a chance, if he rotates them then he not allowing continuity if he drops Leroy or Bruno when they are playing well the question would be why. What I do know is that although Bruno has only played two games at second row this is not a decision that has just been made, he did speak to him about this in the off season and he has been doing some training there too, gilly has been a mentor. We as spectators look at his decisions and the team performance one game at a time Nathan does not, he sees a much bigger picture and he is looking further forward and even possibly into next season.

Have to agree with that.

The difficulty we have as fans is that we never know the full picture about what affects the decision making.
All we ever know is the small details which may not appear to make sense to us.

As a result of franchising and the salary cap there are two very clear external pressures on what the club can do.

We cannot spend more money than we are allowed and we have to have a certain number of players who come through our academy. This means that certain players ie academy players become more valuable to a club even if they are not as good as other players who might be available.

Wigan produce far more quality players than anywhere else so they can afford to keep the best and let the others go.

As Lawrence, McGilvaray and Cudjoe are our best academy players we have to keep them ( this also allows them to negaotiate better salaries than they may deserve. If we had another 10 players coming through we may be able to say to them that they can move on . We have only had a real youth development at the club for 5 years so it will take time for those players to come through.


As for the salary cap players like Hodgson and Wild have to go , not because they are not good players but as internationals when we signed them they would have been on good money.

The money saved on letting them go would be enough to

A/ sign a cheaper replacement ie Luke George
B/ add some extra money to a contract of a more important player ie Lunt
C/ pay some money to keep a promising younger player at the club.


This is the big picture we do not understand or know about. You also need to bear in mind that Davy is losing money hand over fist and wil not bail the club out forever. We are not getting the fans through the door and that may affect the money mens decision. This is what i would like the supporters club turn it's attention to. Organising the die hard fans to add something practical to getting more fans to come to games.



We are only two players off being a very good team a prop and a class centre. The problem is that we have one key player that we cannot really do without and that is Brough because of his kicking.

With Brough back and the full team out we can challenge anyone.

We complain about losing to Wire on Friday but remember how important Brough was to us in the two games when we beat them.


There are lots of other poiints that posters have made that i agree with but to be honest we can only really judge things on how we do now in the big games . Those big games are in the CC and the playoffs. Then we can judge on whether the coach and players are up to it

Durham Giant wrote:

Jools wrote:

There is no win win situation if he doesn't play wardle he's not giving promising youngsters a chance, if he rotates them then he not allowing continuity if he drops Leroy or Bruno when they are playing well the question would be why. What I do know is that although Bruno has only played two games at second row this is not a decision that has just been made, he did speak to him about this in the off season and he has been doing some training there too, gilly has been a mentor. We as spectators look at his decisions and the team performance one game at a time Nathan does not, he sees a much bigger picture and he is looking further forward and even possibly into next season.

Have to agree with that.

The difficulty we have as fans is that we never know the full picture about what affects the decision making.
All we ever know is the small details which may not appear to make sense to us.

As a result of franchising and the salary cap there are two very clear external pressures on what the club can do.

We cannot spend more money than we are allowed and we have to have a certain number of players who come through our academy. This means that certain players ie academy players become more valuable to a club even if they are not as good as other players who might be available.

Wigan produce far more quality players than anywhere else so they can afford to keep the best and let the others go.

As Lawrence, McGilvaray and Cudjoe are our best academy players we have to keep them ( this also allows them to negaotiate better salaries than they may deserve. If we had another 10 players coming through we may be able to say to them that they can move on . We have only had a real youth development at the club for 5 years so it will take time for those players to come through.


As for the salary cap players like Hodgson and Wild have to go , not because they are not good players but as internationals when we signed them they would have been on good money.

The money saved on letting them go would be enough to

A/ sign a cheaper replacement ie Luke George
B/ add some extra money to a contract of a more important player ie Lunt
C/ pay some money to keep a promising younger player at the club.


This is the big picture we do not understand or know about. You also need to bear in mind that Davy is losing money hand over fist and wil not bail the club out forever. We are not getting the fans through the door and that may affect the money mens decision. This is what i would like the supporters club turn it's attention to. Organising the die hard fans to add something practical to getting more fans to come to games.



We are only two players off being a very good team a prop and a class centre. The problem is that we have one key player that we cannot really do without and that is Brough because of his kicking.

With Brough back and the full team out we can challenge anyone.

We complain about losing to Wire on Friday but remember how important Brough was to us in the two games when we beat them.


There are lots of other poiints that posters have made that i agree with but to be honest we can only really judge things on how we do now in the big games . Those big games are in the CC and the playoffs. Then we can judge on whether the coach and players are up to it

That's a good post mate and makes a lot of good points, Like you I don't think we are a long way off a good squad, It's the way It's been used the last couple of months that's been strange to me, and it has culminated in the kind of shows we had at Wigan and Warrington, However N Brown is a professional man and i have no doubt he will be doing whatever it takes to get us back on track, We can make a start by beating Bradford and hopefully Cas in the cup.

Good points Durham...but I would add one thing. You're quite right to mention the business aspect of the club's position and the way KD is losing money.

However, it is my view that the only real way to get another 2k+ supporters down at the ground every Sunday now is for Fartown to win a trophy. And that has to be the CC in my view. A SL side has to win only 5 matches to be Champions. 5 matches. I know it's not as easy as that, but it's doable. Much easier than the league in my opinion. This should have been the absolute priority for the club this season...win the Cup. I would like to think it is, but they way we went on at Batley makes me wonder if NB and the club are gunning for the trophy.

The best way to build for the future is to win something now. The only thing that is stopping Fartown is Fartown, if that makes sense.

What really became clear to me watching the latest games against Wigan and Warrington was something I have thought for the last couple of seasons. We can beat any team in that league, we can beat the majority of them even with them playing to their full potential. We can beat Warrington, Wigan and Saints and will beat them if they are slightly off their games. However play any of those sides when they are playing to their potential and we just are not there. If they play to the speed they are capable of we cannot keep pace with them. Take the Warrington game, they set off like a house on fire, quick play the balls and strong aggressive tackles, from minute 1 we looked like we had already played a half of rugby, slow lazy tackles, laying on etc. Dont get me wrong, I do think we are a good side and Brough makes a massive massive difference to us but I genuinely do not think we are able to match the intensity of the very top sides if they are on their game. whether it is still a confidence thing I dont know but it certainly should not be. They just did not seem either capable or interested in that 1st half and the rain in the second was a bit of a leveller. Dont think I have ever been as fed up or disheartened over the last 3 seasons than I was at warrington in that 1st half. I hope this is a dip, after all we had one last year and made it as close to OT as it gets so all is not lost, but it does not alter my view regarding our optimum performance level compared with the levels of the other top teams.

Talking to someone at the club at the weekend. Apparently the club are in prime position to start peaking now where as Warrington and Wigan have peaked too early and won't be able sustain that level till the end of the season. Only time will tell if this is true.

Pharmergibbs wrote:

What really became clear to me watching the latest games against Wigan and Warrington was something I have thought for the last couple of seasons. We can beat any team in that league, we can beat the majority of them even with them playing to their full potential. We can beat Warrington, Wigan and Saints and will beat them if they are slightly off their games. However play any of those sides when they are playing to their potential and we just are not there. If they play to the speed they are capable of we cannot keep pace with them. Take the Warrington game, they set off like a house on fire, quick play the balls and strong aggressive tackles, from minute 1 we looked like we had already played a half of rugby, slow lazy tackles, laying on etc. Dont get me wrong, I do think we are a good side and Brough makes a massive massive difference to us but I genuinely do not think we are able to match the intensity of the very top sides if they are on their game. whether it is still a confidence thing I dont know but it certainly should not be. They just did not seem either capable or interested in that 1st half and the rain in the second was a bit of a leveller. Dont think I have ever been as fed up or disheartened over the last 3 seasons than I was at warrington in that 1st half. I hope this is a dip, after all we had one last year and made it as close to OT as it gets so all is not lost, but it does not alter my view regarding our optimum performance level compared with the levels of the other top teams.

No getting away from it both W's upped their intensity against us and we struggled to cope with it.They did to us what we have been doing to other teams,including Warrington so far this season.Our own success was built on the back of great go forward one off the ruck from Crabtree,Griffin and Mason.The interchange forwards can come on and do cameo roles to good effect but those 3 props are our powerhouse.We need them fit and running it up like they did just before this blip in form.LOD is total machine,Fa'alogo is class too,and Faiumu is a very important player to us with his ability to step and offload.

You have to credit Warrington they came up with 4 man gang tackles that rattled us,we coughed up ball,lost points and then our own intensity dropped away.Same at Wigan,though they got a roll on by looking for the deck on every drive getting quick ptb's that killed us.Our forwards need to get some mongrel back into the first up contact and wrestle to slow the ptb.Easy said sat in the stands,good luck boys.

Like Ponner says though,have the W's peaked too early,no way will Nathan accept we are just going to be bridesmaids to the W's he's already made that clear.

Still all to play for,be interesting to see how we go at Bradford,because no doubt they will think now they can get on top of our forwards like the Lancs boys did,and cause another upset.

With any luck everybody will have seen the light and realized how we have slipped, Maybe Ponner is right ( his info usually is ) and we are certainly a better side than we have been seeing since the Batley game, Pharmergibbs made some good points with which i tend to agree. If one or two other teams have peaked too early, and we are just about too start peaking then we are capable of beating anyone, Hope we start this weekend with Bradford.

Mark i am guna stop telling you stuff if ya guna keep puting it on here. LOL.

........................in which case we`ll have to rely on my mate Boydy for the nudge nudge info eh??

If it is true and physically we will be better prepared than Wire and Wigan come the play-offs then great, but it could back fire and we finish lower down the league than otherwise we would have so have a more challenging route to the final.

lots of really good points and posts here and agree with the majority of them.

We are obviously missing Brough in attack but the big thing that has struck me has been how our defence has collapsed compared to last season.

last season we were tough in defence and I mean tough as in wanting to hurt the opposition (bit like Wigan and Wire did to us!!) but this season we seem to have gone soft.

Anyone any idea what's happened in that department?

Also people on here are saying if someone had said at start of season we would be third and in c/c quarter finals they would have snapped their hand off.

I wouldn't tbh cos after last year and with the signings we made we should be winning something this season, anything less just isnt good enough.

NB has had the time to mould his team and now needs to be showing if he is this great coach everyone says he is.

On some of the performances this season alot would say he has a long way to go.

FLYINGPROP wrote:

lots of really good points and posts here and agree with the majority of them.

We are obviously missing Brough in attack but the big thing that has struck me has been how our defence has collapsed compared to last season.

last season we were tough in defence and I mean tough as in wanting to hurt the opposition (bit like Wigan and Wire did to us!!) but this season we seem to have gone soft.

Anyone any idea what's happened in that department?

Also people on here are saying if someone had said at start of season we would be third and in c/c quarter finals they would have snapped their hand off.

I wouldn't tbh cos after last year and with the signings we made we should be winning something this season, anything less just isnt good enough.

NB has had the time to mould his team and now needs to be showing if he is this great coach everyone says he is.

On some of the performances this season alot would say he has a long way to go.

Like you mate I also thought this was the season we have been building up to with a squad big enough to cope with most eventualities, But the Fat lady is not singing yet so if we get our defence back to something like, all is not lost, But it needs to start now, A good show at Bradford could be just that start, We don't have anymore time for talk about getting there ,we need to be there now.

just the fact Bo that different people have a different idea of where THERE actually is --and when???

penninegiant wrote:

just the fact Bo that different people have a different idea of where THERE actually is --and when???

What we have to remember though PG , is that most of the posters on here are a lot younger than some of us, where we are at now will seem Fantastic to them after what we have been like, and in truth It is , Its just that when you get as old as we "sorry I am " It doesn't have as much effect simply because we have seen us hit the heights, We have lost count of the number of ( next year will be our year ),and so we are not so easily exited about things, Yet like the youngster we keep turning up, I know iv'e been doing it for 58 years and i know you have been going longer than me.
At the end of the day we all support the same team, we may well have our different ideas ( nothing wrong with that ) but we all want the same thing, and that is to see K Brown lift some silverware, I would really love to see us thrash Warrington at Wembley, That would keep me going for a while.

Yes we have made some fantastic signings this year, but we did lose probably the best player in Super League and our captain so to have basically done at least as well as before is an achievement in itself. Still this is now the important time. Win most of our remaining games to stay in the top four, get to Wembley and go one better there or get to Old Trafford and then we know that all this chopping and changing has been worth it.

SO..........................................ALL POSTERS....................................................................................................................................................................................

FLYINGPROP wrote:

lots of really good points and posts here and agree with the majority of them.

We are obviously missing Brough in attack but the big thing that has struck me has been how our defence has collapsed compared to last season.

last season we were tough in defence and I mean tough as in wanting to hurt the opposition (bit like Wigan and Wire did to us!!) but this season we seem to have gone soft.

Anyone any idea what's happened in that department?

Also people on here are saying if someone had said at start of season we would be third and in c/c quarter finals they would have snapped their hand off.

I wouldn't tbh cos after last year and with the signings we made we should be winning something this season, anything less just isnt good enough.

NB has had the time to mould his team and now needs to be showing if he is this great coach everyone says he is.

On some of the performances this season alot would say he has a long way to go.

My twopennerth.

Only Wigan & Warrington have made us look soft.

It's obvious now you have to stay with them two sides in the first 20 minutes.Leeds & Cas stayed with Wigan after watching our 'effort' there,and then 'super' Wigan started running 1 out,until the coach got hold of them at half time.

Warrington,well they ganged up on LOD and forced the fumble,then got so very lucky on the back of that kick to KIng.Same at Wigan we got to 6-6 then Grix dropped a restart.

What will have worried NB most is how our intensity dropped off in the first up contact after that double blow at Warrington,as though we had there and then accepted our fate.

Wigan & Warrington may have peaked early,hope so,but the bookmakers have now written us well and truly out of things,in fact there are worse odds for Saints & Catalans to take out the GF.

Hope we can rise to the challenge.

defleppard wrote:

FLYINGPROP wrote:

lots of really good points and posts here and agree with the majority of them.

We are obviously missing Brough in attack but the big thing that has struck me has been how our defence has collapsed compared to last season.

last season we were tough in defence and I mean tough as in wanting to hurt the opposition (bit like Wigan and Wire did to us!!) but this season we seem to have gone soft.

Anyone any idea what's happened in that department?

Also people on here are saying if someone had said at start of season we would be third and in c/c quarter finals they would have snapped their hand off.

I wouldn't tbh cos after last year and with the signings we made we should be winning something this season, anything less just isnt good enough.

NB has had the time to mould his team and now needs to be showing if he is this great coach everyone says he is.

On some of the performances this season alot would say he has a long way to go.

My twopennerth.

Only Wigan & Warrington have made us look soft.

It's obvious now you have to stay with them two sides in the first 20 minutes.Leeds & Cas stayed with Wigan after watching our 'effort' there,and then 'super' Wigan started running 1 out,until the coach got hold of them at half time.

Warrington,well they ganged up on LOD and forced the fumble,then got so very lucky on the back of that kick to KIng.Same at Wigan we got to 6-6 then Grix dropped a restart.

What will have worried NB most is how our intensity dropped off in the first up contact after that double blow at Warrington,as though we had there and then accepted our fate.

Wigan & Warrington may have peaked early,hope so,but the bookmakers have now written us well and truly out of things,in fact there are worse odds for Saints & Catalans to take out the GF.

Hope we can rise to the challenge.

What about Cas away start of season, Crusaders away, Wakefield away and now Bradford away?

ponner wrote:

Talking to someone at the club at the weekend. Apparently the club are in prime position to start peaking now where as Warrington and Wigan have peaked too early and won't be able sustain that level till the end of the season. Only time will tell if this is true.

So when do we peak? Hopefully the four day rest and this kick up the backside should mean we get it right from now on. Fingers crossed.

matt01 wrote:

ponner wrote:

Talking to someone at the club at the weekend. Apparently the club are in prime position to start peaking now where as Warrington and Wigan have peaked too early and won't be able sustain that level till the end of the season. Only time will tell if this is true.

So when do we peak? Hopefully the four day rest and this kick up the backside should mean we get it right from now on. Fingers crossed.

Going on the show at Bradford Matt, not in the foreseeable future. N Brown has proved himself a top coach but at the moment right when we need to fire we are a shambles, Maybe (as i have read somewhere) his abilities don't extent to Man management.
Whatever has gone wrong, (if anything) it must be fairly recent, You wouldn't expect players with a big future like Lunt to be extending their stay if it was a unhappy camp. If It's nothing like that in the club, and It's purely on field, then for me the ball is firmly in N Browns court, Time to front up and sort it.

FP when I say Wigan & Wire made us look soft,I meant they took it to us and we couldn't live with it.

The other games you mention it was more a case of us not being committed enough.