D Day

Apparently next Tuesday is the day for the announcement on the Franchises, who will be the winners and losers, I expect the same 12 as we have now (dont think the RFL will have the bottle to drop anyone ) plus Celtic and Salford, That is definitely not what i want but It's what i expect, I really hope they drop a side from west Yorks, maybe two and include the French, and one more from over the hill, It's time to break out big style.

Your expectations are my expectations!

Hoewver, I blow hot and cold about what I would do.

slow and steady, we don't want another Gateshead or Paris or Sheffield

Don't forget Catalan are still a new club who despite being at the top of the league haven't improved attendances this season. Quins are still just about hanging in there and Cas have the potential to grow, but have such a weak squad even we can hammer them. If you add Salford who hopefully should be ok and Celtic who will probably be similar to Cas without the big following, then thats enough for the time being.

Sky Sports News have it live at 10am on the Tuesday for those that are interested and of course not at work.

matt01 wrote:

slow and steady, we don't want another Gateshead or Paris or Sheffield

Don't forget Catalan are still a new club who despite being at the top of the league haven't improved attendances this season. Quins are still just about hanging in there and Cas have the potential to grow, but have such a weak squad even we can hammer them. If you add Salford who hopefully should be ok and Celtic who will probably be similar to Cas without the big following, then thats enough for the time being.

To be fair, Gateshead were never given a cat in hell`s chance in SL. They only had 2 seasons to establish in a virgin area for rugby league. And if I remember rightly they were a pretty good (mainly Aussie) squad and crowds were very slowly increasing, something fishy (pardon the pun) about merging with Hull.FC. when Hull.FC. were just about bust financially.

To be frank, all the mergers that went on were nothing but a sham.
My personal opinion is that the likes of Gateshead should have carried on in there own right and they might have been where Hull FC are now and vice-versa.

Sat here waiting for it to begin at 10am on Sky Sports News

Shut up Lewis! Ugh! Wish he'd get on with it...

I said that lol but we have celtic and salford in now.
would have preferred widnes meself but oh well only 3 years to wait lol

Celtic in my mind have been given a spot by way of an expansion hope. An absolute scam that they have taken the place of a small handful of other teams. Another away game i wont bother traveling to.

You won't be on ur own mate.

I am not wasting my time either.

I'm happy enough with Celtic Crusaders coming in. They've been gearing up for this since their birth. Of the other home nations Wales is the best by far to expand the game plus it's an excuse for a weekend away
Widnes have a proud history as do Huddersfield but i'd like to think this had no affect on us gaining a license. The financial problems Widnes encountered recently may have hindered their application.

Pleased that Celtic have got a licence. I hope they make a real success of the game in Wales.
At the same time I feel sorry for the other clubs that did not make it, but they can set out their stalls for another application in 3 years time knowing what they need to do to stand a chance of entry to SL.
At the same time the present members of SL will not have to sit on their booty`s thinking that`s it for 3 years, they will still need to develop every section of the club.
I did not like the removal of relegation at first, but now I think this new idea will keep all clubs from stagnating, knowing that if standards slip they could be out in 3 years.
NL1 & 2 can still have very competitive competitions of their own even without promotion to SL but still have promotion and relegation between NL1 & 2

Shogun wrote:

Pleased that Celtic have got a licence. I hope they make a real success of the game in Wales.
At the same time I feel sorry for the other clubs that did not make it, but they can set out their stalls for another application in 3 years time knowing what they need to do to stand a chance of entry to SL.
At the same time the present members of SL will not have to sit on their booty`s thinking that`s it for 3 years, they will still need to develop every section of the club.
I did not like the removal of relegation at first, but now I think this new idea will keep all clubs from stagnating, knowing that if standards slip they could be out in 3 years.
NL1 & 2 can still have very competitive competitions of their own even without promotion to SL but still have promotion and relegation between NL1 & 2

Nip down to Dewsbury this weekend, then go to Batley and you will see how the RFL cares very little about the NL clubs and thats across the board. Nothing trickles down to them. I read an article a while back about Sky wanting to show NL1 games on a Thursday night - the RFL asked sky if they could reschedule SL games and show those instead.
The RFL cares not for the nationals.

Sturl wrote:

Shogun wrote:

Pleased that Celtic have got a licence. I hope they make a real success of the game in Wales.
At the same time I feel sorry for the other clubs that did not make it, but they can set out their stalls for another application in 3 years time knowing what they need to do to stand a chance of entry to SL.
At the same time the present members of SL will not have to sit on their booty`s thinking that`s it for 3 years, they will still need to develop every section of the club.
I did not like the removal of relegation at first, but now I think this new idea will keep all clubs from stagnating, knowing that if standards slip they could be out in 3 years.
NL1 & 2 can still have very competitive competitions of their own even without promotion to SL but still have promotion and relegation between NL1 & 2

Nip down to Dewsbury this weekend, then go to Batley and you will see how the RFL cares very little about the NL clubs and thats across the board. Nothing trickles down to them. I read an article a while back about Sky wanting to show NL1 games on a Thursday night - the RFL asked sky if they could reschedule SL games and show those instead.
The RFL cares not for the nationals.

I must be missing your point Stu, are you saying the RFL tried to get Sky to show one of the super league games on a Thursday instead of Fri or Sat, I understood the RFL had been trying to get a deal for the NLs for quite a while and finally managed to do it, What you seem to be saying is , It was Skys idea and the RFL tried to scotch it.

With regards to the little clubs like Dewsbury, Batley, Fev ect, How is it the RFLs fault they are in the position they are, If Fartown had of gone down the pan instead of being saved by K Davy, that would presumably have been down to the RFL not caring about them. You have to remember mate that some of these clubs have been going for a hundred years, if they can only get 1500 fans after that length of time ,how is that the fault of the RFL.

Having said that, when Sky got involved ( or bought the game depending how you see it ) a new opportunity arose to take the whole game forward, unfortunately a dozen clubs saw themselves as the game and decided the money was exclusively for them, and as you know some small clubs bankrupted themselves trying to get themselves into or to stay in Super league.

The truth is that there are no longer enough people interested in League to maintain the number of local clubs. Famous clubs like Hunslet steeped in RL history, others like Bramley, are no more than amateurs now in reality, some clubs are gone forever, That is why the game must expand, League has to get It's share of sports fans from other places than the M62 corridor. In West Yorkshire we have Leeds, Bradford, Fartown, wakey and Cas, all in a 20 mile radius, and that's just Super league, If you then add on the NLs, that's a lot of clubs fighting for fans, Yes it's very convenient to just get onto the M62 and go to any match you like, the question is how much longer is it going to last.

This franchising thing is the currant opportunity to take the game forward again, but you have to convince the Super league clubs not the RFL, If they would give up some of the cash to invest in the NLs, there is every chance that they could have a vibrant and competitive league where teams like Fax, Widness ect would not only be good on the field but would have their clubs in a position to take over from a failing Superleague team, and below them are all the new teams down south who are trying to get the game established, what sort of help ar they getting.
The biggest benefit of this would be the investment in young players coming through the NLs and achieving Superleague standards in decent numbers and the clubs who train and develop them being paid a decent transfer fee instead or being robbed as they are now, All this depends on the Super league clubs being prepared to take a little longer term view than, we are the TV stars we should get the money.
Myself i expect there to be around 8 Super league clubs in Yorks and Lancs in the not to distant future, and the game to expand steadily from now . I would have liked Toulouse to have got in this time but i can see that it was maybe a bit to soon , but I'd bet on them being there next time, and whether they are or not will have little or no effect on Dewsbury, Batley or any other club, unless the Super league clubs are prepared to take a more long term view , like the RFL are trying to do.

Just my opinion mate you dont have to see it the same way, very few other people seem to do.

BO JANGLES wrote:

Sturl wrote:

Shogun wrote:

Pleased that Celtic have got a licence. I hope they make a real success of the game in Wales.
At the same time I feel sorry for the other clubs that did not make it, but they can set out their stalls for another application in 3 years time knowing what they need to do to stand a chance of entry to SL.
At the same time the present members of SL will not have to sit on their booty`s thinking that`s it for 3 years, they will still need to develop every section of the club.
I did not like the removal of relegation at first, but now I think this new idea will keep all clubs from stagnating, knowing that if standards slip they could be out in 3 years.
NL1 & 2 can still have very competitive competitions of their own even without promotion to SL but still have promotion and relegation between NL1 & 2

Nip down to Dewsbury this weekend, then go to Batley and you will see how the RFL cares very little about the NL clubs and thats across the board. Nothing trickles down to them. I read an article a while back about Sky wanting to show NL1 games on a Thursday night - the RFL asked sky if they could reschedule SL games and show those instead.
The RFL cares not for the nationals.

I must be missing your point Stu, are you saying the RFL tried to get Sky to show one of the super league games on a Thursday instead of Fri or Sat, I understood the RFL had been trying to get a deal for the NLs for quite a while and finally managed to do it, What you seem to be saying is , It was Skys idea and the RFL tried to scotch it.


Yes, effectively. Setanta were bidding for rights to show RL and Sky upped their coverage to that of NL presumably so setanta couldnt get just the Nationals. When Sky secured the rights the RFL encouraged the NL to be dropped for SL games.


With regards to the little clubs like Dewsbury, Batley, Fev ect, How is it the RFLs fault they are in the position they are, If Fartown had of gone down the pan instead of being saved by K Davy, that would presumably have been down to the RFL not caring about them. You have to remember mate that some of these clubs have been going for a hundred years, if they can only get 1500 fans after that length of time ,how is that the fault of the RFL.


By creating the SL the RFL created a sort of elitest league whereby most players strive to end up and it is marketed in such a way that it is the be all and end all of RL. Very little money trickles down to these clubs. They can barely afford to exist yet alone even begin to compare themselves with SL. For example Dewsbury must compete with Leeds, Bradford and Huddersfield.

Having said that, when Sky got involved ( or bought the game depending how you see it ) a new opportunity arose to take the whole game forward, unfortunately a dozen clubs saw themselves as the game and decided the money was exclusively for them, and as you know some small clubs bankrupted themselves trying to get themselves into or to stay in Super league.


Yes which was my point exactly in regards to Widnes. As has already been touted, Celtics license is purely geographical and in that sense it appears the whole licnese bid was nothing more than a farcial charade.

The truth is that there are no longer enough people interested in League to maintain the number of local clubs. Famous clubs like Hunslet steeped in RL history, others like Bramley, are no more than amateurs now in reality, some clubs are gone forever, That is why the game must expand, League has to get It's share of sports fans from other places than the M62 corridor. In West Yorkshire we have Leeds, Bradford, Fartown, wakey and Cas, all in a 20 mile radius, and that's just Super league, If you then add on the NLs, that's a lot of clubs fighting for fans, Yes it's very convenient to just get onto the M62 and go to any match you like, the question is how much longer is it going to last.
This franchising thing is the currant opportunity to take the game forward again, but you have to convince the Super league clubs not the RFL, If they would give up some of the cash to invest in the NLs, there is every chance that they could have a vibrant and competitive league where teams like Fax, Widness ect would not only be good on the field but would have their clubs in a position to take over from a failing Superleague team, and below them are all the new teams down south who are trying to get the game established, what sort of help ar they getting.
The biggest benefit of this would be the investment in young players coming through the NLs and achieving Superleague standards in decent numbers and the clubs who train and develop them being paid a decent transfer fee instead or being robbed as they are now, All this depends on the Super league clubs being prepared to take a little longer term view than, we are the TV stars we should get the money.
Myself i expect there to be around 8 Super league clubs in Yorks and Lancs in the not to distant future, and the game to expand steadily from now . I would have liked Toulouse to have got in this time but i can see that it was maybe a bit to soon , but I'd bet on them being there next time, and whether they are or not will have little or no effect on Dewsbury, Batley or any other club, unless the Super league clubs are prepared to take a more long term view , like the RFL are trying to do.
Just my opinion mate you dont have to see it the same way, very few other people seem to do.

Laurie we agree on 99% of issue mate but i really dont buy what you are saying here. Whilst i partially agree with the franchise system in reality i see it as a further nail in the coffin of local RL. I predict in 3 years Celtic will not have improved their fan base and i believe things down there will be pretty much the same as they are now. The only difference being gate money will have been lost as most fans wont travel there like they dont to Quinns or to Catalans (less so)
If as you suggest money is going to be pumped into the NL's then i believe the only this can happen is if a SL team sort of sisters a NL side.
An example is supposed to be Bradford and Dewsbury (we all know Bradford even wear the colours of Dewsbury) Now, Bradford have an excellent acadamy, why cant they invest in Dewsbury and use them as a feeder team in the same way acadamys are used. I really do believe that is the only way the nationals can be kept alive. This would create a two tier system and would marry both leagues whilst keeping the money strong in both leagues.

Laurie we agree on 99% of issue mate but i really dont buy what you are saying here. Whilst i partially agree with the franchise system in reality i see it as a further nail in the coffin of local RL. I predict in 3 years Celtic will not have improved their fan base and i believe things down there will be pretty much the same as they are now. The only difference being gate money will have been lost as most fans wont travel there like they dont to Quinns or to Catalans (less so)
If as you suggest money is going to be pumped into the NL's then i believe the only this can happen is if a SL team sort of sisters a NL side.
An example is supposed to be Bradford and Dewsbury (we all know Bradford even wear the colours of Dewsbury) Now, Bradford have an excellent acadamy, why cant they invest in Dewsbury and use them as a feeder team in the same way acadamys are used. I really do believe that is the only way the nationals can be kept alive. This would create a two tier system and would marry both leagues whilst keeping the money strong in both leagues.

Stu i believe the Nls are dieing on there feet, just as the super league was before Sky came along, I truly believe if CC had been passed over in favor of Widnes, it would have made no difference to the NLs other than to take out one of the better teams ,further weakening the comp and reducing fans even further in the NL's. I'm not suggesting that money is going to be pumped into the NL's, i am suggesting that Super league clubs should take less so that the NL's would get something.
I can't predict what CC fan base will be in 3 years, but Catalans are in their third year and already they have better crowds than us and we have been going over a hundred years, Yes they are in a League area, but not as big a league area as we are.
South Wales is as good a place to expand to as any , the main sport is rugby ,maybe the wrong kind but there have been a lot or good league players come from down there, It would probably have been better to move down there a few years ago when Union was at a very low ebb, but IMO better late than never.
I didn't know anything about Setanta bidding for league at all, I genuinely thought Sky showing the NLs was part of the new deal negotiated with Sky, As far as i understand it they dont get any money for it anyway.
The Super league clubs are the big problem Stu, they are looking short term, and Leeds Bradford or the Giants dont really give a ff about Dewsbury or Batley, And in all honesty neither do their fans, The majority of Giants fans ,just like all fans are more bothered about what new Aussie they are going to be getting for next season, than they are about the NLs, It's human nature mate and maybe they are right ,they pay their money they want to see the best. Bugger the NLs let them get into Super league any way they can ,just like Widnes tried last season and went bust.
Just as a matter of interest , i note that the Giants were awarded a C licence, so they need to up the production of young players, and increase there fan base if they can.

BO JANGLES wrote:

Laurie we agree on 99% of issue mate but i really dont buy what you are saying here. Whilst i partially agree with the franchise system in reality i see it as a further nail in the coffin of local RL. I predict in 3 years Celtic will not have improved their fan base and i believe things down there will be pretty much the same as they are now. The only difference being gate money will have been lost as most fans wont travel there like they dont to Quinns or to Catalans (less so)
If as you suggest money is going to be pumped into the NL's then i believe the only this can happen is if a SL team sort of sisters a NL side.
An example is supposed to be Bradford and Dewsbury (we all know Bradford even wear the colours of Dewsbury) Now, Bradford have an excellent acadamy, why cant they invest in Dewsbury and use them as a feeder team in the same way acadamys are used. I really do believe that is the only way the nationals can be kept alive. This would create a two tier system and would marry both leagues whilst keeping the money strong in both leagues.

Stu i believe the Nls are dieing on there feet, just as the super league was before Sky came along, I truly believe if CC had been passed over in favor of Widnes, it would have made no difference to the NLs other than to take out one of the better teams ,further weakening the comp and reducing fans even further in the NL's. I'm not suggesting that money is going to be pumped into the NL's, i am suggesting that Super league clubs should take less so that the NL's would get something.
I can't predict what CC fan base will be in 3 years, but Catalans are in their third year and already they have better crowds than us and we have been going over a hundred years, Yes they are in a League area, but not as big a league area as we are.
South Wales is as good a place to expand to as any , the main sport is rugby ,maybe the wrong kind but there have been a lot or good league players come from down there, It would probably have been better to move down there a few years ago when Union was at a very low ebb, but IMO better late than never.
I didn't know anything about Setanta bidding for league at all, I genuinely thought Sky showing the NLs was part of the new deal negotiated with Sky, As far as i understand it they dont get any money for it anyway.
The Super league clubs are the big problem Stu, they are looking short term, and Leeds Bradford or the Giants dont really give a ff about Dewsbury or Batley, And in all honesty neither do their fans, The majority of Giants fans ,just like all fans are more bothered about what new Aussie they are going to be getting for next season, than they are about the NLs, It's human nature mate and maybe they are right ,they pay their money they want to see the best. Bugger the NLs let them get into Super league any way they can ,just like Widnes tried last season and went bust.
Just as a matter of interest , i note that the Giants were awarded a C licence, so they need to up the production of young players, and increase there fan base if they can.

The the is mate were kind of in a catch 22 situation. As you quite rightly stated fans dont really give a damn about NL teams, i go to enough NL games to know that an attendence of 600 is a bloody good one. So yes it is dying on its feet but i firmly believe that is partially down to the RFL and their neglect for anything outside of SL.

I also agree that the expansion to Wales is important to our sport and i hope it will prove fruitful. But i simply dont agree with the whole charade of license bids, i mean lets be honest mate we both know full well Celtic were a cert from the start - in the same way the biggest city in the north was.

What has just happened has been the single biggest thing to happen to RL in 12 years, but i think the RFL have stopped short. Imo there is a whole lot more that could have and should have been done. The RFL's response - Watch this space.

20 years down the line i doubt very much there will be NL1 etc, no doubt there will be one league streamlined to absorb the maximum potential supporters and that day will be a sad day. A day watching Batley v Dewsbury is as good as any.

Id just like to ad the RFL have actually announced a french club will join the Nationals and that the NL1 wil have their own 'magic weekend'
Excellent news.

Sturl wrote:

Id just like to ad the RFL have actually announced a french club will join the Nationals and that the NL1 wil have their own 'magic weekend'
Excellent news.

Then that is great news, lets hope they dont stop there. You are right about the franchising thing being a charade, Sky know what they want and the RFL have to go along, Sky are IMO not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, or for any great love of Rugby league, they are doing it to sell dishes and pull in viewers. The fact that it will probably be what saves League is by the way.
There is as you will know Stu a very old saying.( he who pays the piper calls the tune ) I would say myself that the RFL is in charge of the running of the game in the everyday sense, but there is little doubt who is in control

BO JANGLES wrote:

Sturl wrote:

Id just like to ad the RFL have actually announced a french club will join the Nationals and that the NL1 wil have their own 'magic weekend'
Excellent news.

Then that is great news, lets hope they dont stop there. You are right about the franchising thing being a charade, Sky know what they want and the RFL have to go along, Sky are IMO not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, or for any great love of Rugby league, they are doing it to sell dishes and pull in viewers. The fact that it will probably be what saves League is by the way.
There is as you will know Stu a very old saying.( he who pays the piper calls the tune ) I would say myself that the RFL is in charge of the running of the game in the everyday sense, but there is little doubt who is in control

That is absolutely true mate.

Sturl wrote:

BO JANGLES wrote:

Sturl wrote:

Id just like to ad the RFL have actually announced a french club will join the Nationals and that the NL1 wil have their own 'magic weekend'
Excellent news.

Then that is great news, lets hope they dont stop there. You are right about the franchising thing being a charade, Sky know what they want and the RFL have to go along, Sky are IMO not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, or for any great love of Rugby league, they are doing it to sell dishes and pull in viewers. The fact that it will probably be what saves League is by the way.
There is as you will know Stu a very old saying.( he who pays the piper calls the tune ) I would say myself that the RFL is in charge of the running of the game in the everyday sense, but there is little doubt who is in control

That is absolutely true mate.

When are we going for a pint again with that old bugger from Omfeth.

BO JANGLES wrote:

Sturl wrote:

BO JANGLES wrote:

Sturl wrote:

Id just like to ad the RFL have actually announced a french club will join the Nationals and that the NL1 wil have their own 'magic weekend'
Excellent news.

Then that is great news, lets hope they dont stop there. You are right about the franchising thing being a charade, Sky know what they want and the RFL have to go along, Sky are IMO not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts, or for any great love of Rugby league, they are doing it to sell dishes and pull in viewers. The fact that it will probably be what saves League is by the way.
There is as you will know Stu a very old saying.( he who pays the piper calls the tune ) I would say myself that the RFL is in charge of the running of the game in the everyday sense, but there is little doubt who is in control

That is absolutely true mate.

When are we going for a pint again with that old bugger from Omfeth.

I can go anytime mate, let me know a time and ill be there.

Some good points raised by both parties here.

Yes, it would be nice to only have to travel along the M62 to games, but for the hardest game on the planet to reach the widest number of people, it has to expand.

Small point Lawrie. I thought we were awarded a B licence.